Unbreakable Formation vs. Cry of the CarnariumCan an indestructible creature die by a combination of damage and -X/-X effects?Can a non-instant or sorcery ever have flashback?do creatures created after a “all creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn” instant get -1/-1 as well?What happens when I target an indestructible card with an “if that would die this turn, exile it instead” effect?Exalted trigger timingWhat happens when a non-token creature loses all abilities, is exiled, then returns?Does the spell cast with Yahenni's Expertise resolve before state-based effects are checked?What happens if Always Watching is destroyed mid-combat?MTG: Abilities lost when exiled?Under which controller does a stolen permanent come into play after being exiled?

Unbreakable Formation vs. Cry of the Carnarium

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Unbreakable Formation vs. Cry of the Carnarium


Can an indestructible creature die by a combination of damage and -X/-X effects?Can a non-instant or sorcery ever have flashback?do creatures created after a “all creatures get -1/-1 until end of turn” instant get -1/-1 as well?What happens when I target an indestructible card with an “if that would die this turn, exile it instead” effect?Exalted trigger timingWhat happens when a non-token creature loses all abilities, is exiled, then returns?Does the spell cast with Yahenni's Expertise resolve before state-based effects are checked?What happens if Always Watching is destroyed mid-combat?MTG: Abilities lost when exiled?Under which controller does a stolen permanent come into play after being exiled?













6















My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?










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  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    7 hours ago















6















My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    7 hours ago













6












6








6








My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?










share|improve this question









New contributor




Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.












My opponent played Cry of the Carnarium in MTG Arena. I immediately played Unbreakable Formation after. The intended result was for my creatures to not die or get exiled, but they did. Shouldn't Unbreakable Formation resolve, granting me indestructible until end of turn?







magic-the-gathering mtg-arena






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edited 6 hours ago









doppelgreener

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asked 8 hours ago









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Ronnie is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    7 hours ago

















  • As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

    – Malco
    7 hours ago
















As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

– Malco
7 hours ago





As discussed in the answers below, I think a lot of the confusion comes from the way MTG: arena displays loss of toughness. (+0/-2 is not equal to 2 damage, even though MTG:A displays them the same way)

– Malco
7 hours ago










3 Answers
3






active

oldest

votes


















8














The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






share|improve this answer






























    5














    Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




    702.12. Indestructible




    702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



    702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





    Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




    704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




    Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




    701.7. Destroy




    701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



    701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





    Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






    share|improve this answer






























      4














      Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



      "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



      Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



      (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






      share|improve this answer























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        3 Answers
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        3 Answers
        3






        active

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        active

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        active

        oldest

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        8














        The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



        The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




        A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




        The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




        If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




        The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




        If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




        As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



        Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






        share|improve this answer



























          8














          The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



          The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




          A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




          The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




          If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




          The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




          If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




          As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



          Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






          share|improve this answer

























            8












            8








            8







            The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



            The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




            A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




            The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




            If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




            The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




            If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




            As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



            Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.






            share|improve this answer













            The card Unbreakable Formation will not generally save your creatures from dying from Cry of the Carnarium, because the ability Indestructible does not save creatures from dying from toughness loss.



            The ability Indestructible is defined in rule 702.12b:




            A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).




            The rule it references, 704.5g, is part of the State-based action rules:




            If a creature has toughness greater than 0, and the total damage marked on it is greater than or equal to its toughness, that creature has been dealt lethal damage and is destroyed. Regeneration can replace this event.




            The previous rule, 704.5f, says this:




            If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




            As you can see, if a creature takes damage greater than or equal to its toughness, it is "destroyed", so Indestructible can stop it. But if a creature loses all of its toughness, it is just put into the graveyard, so Indestructible doesn't do anything about that.



            Magic Arena displays damage the same way it displays toughness loss, but they are not the same thing.







            share|improve this answer












            share|improve this answer



            share|improve this answer










            answered 7 hours ago









            murgatroid99murgatroid99

            48k7120202




            48k7120202





















                5














                Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                702.12. Indestructible




                702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                701.7. Destroy




                701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






                share|improve this answer



























                  5














                  Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                  702.12. Indestructible




                  702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                  702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                  Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                  704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                  Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                  701.7. Destroy




                  701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                  701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                  Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






                  share|improve this answer

























                    5












                    5








                    5







                    Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                    702.12. Indestructible




                    702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                    702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                    Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                    704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                    Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                    701.7. Destroy




                    701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                    701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                    Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.






                    share|improve this answer













                    Indestructible does not save a creature from dying due to having 0 toughness. It only prevents creatures from being destroyed.




                    702.12. Indestructible




                    702.12a Indestructible is a static ability.



                    702.12b A permanent with indestructible can't be destroyed. Such permanents aren't destroyed by lethal damage, and they ignore the state-based action that checks for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g).





                    Dying as a result of having 0 toughness is not being destroyed. A creature with 0 toughness dies because of this state-based action:




                    704.5f If a creature has toughness 0 or less, it's put into its owner's graveyard. Regeneration can't replace this event.




                    Also see this definition of destroyed in the rules:




                    701.7. Destroy




                    701.7a To destroy a permanent, move it from the battlefield to its owner's graveyard.



                    701.7b The only ways a permanent can be destroyed are as a result of an effect that uses the word "destroy" or as a result of the state-based actions that check for lethal damage (see rule 704.5g) or damage from a source with deathtouch (see rule 704.5h). If a permanent is put into its owner's graveyard for any other reason, it hasn't been "destroyed."





                    Similarly, you cannot use regeneration to prevent a creature from dying this way.







                    share|improve this answer












                    share|improve this answer



                    share|improve this answer










                    answered 7 hours ago









                    GendoIkariGendoIkari

                    44.6k394172




                    44.6k394172





















                        4














                        Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                        "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                        Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                        (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






                        share|improve this answer



























                          4














                          Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                          "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                          Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                          (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






                          share|improve this answer

























                            4












                            4








                            4







                            Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                            "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                            Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                            (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )






                            share|improve this answer













                            Unbreakable Formation did make your creatures indestructible. Unfortunately, that wasn't enough to save them.



                            "Indestructible" means that lethal damage and 'destroy' effects won't destroy your creatures. However, if a creature had zero toughness it dies as a state-based-effect, and that isn't prevented by indestructible. Cry of the Carnarium reduces the power and toughness of your creatures, dodging indestructible.



                            Arena confuses this by showing damage as if it was reducing the toughness of the creature, but in actuality the effects are distinct. A 2/2 with two damage still has 2 toughness, but a 2/2 with -2/-2 has 0 toughness.



                            (Technically speaking, death by lethal damage is also a state-based-effect, but it's one that is specifically protected against by indestructible. )







                            share|improve this answer












                            share|improve this answer



                            share|improve this answer










                            answered 7 hours ago









                            Arcanist LupusArcanist Lupus

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