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$begingroup$
Assume my prime generation is as follows:
Pick a number $q$ between 1000 and 9999. $p=abcd$.
Make sure p is prime
Construct $p$ such by taking the last 2 digits of $q$ and the first 2 digits of q, i.e. $q=cdab$
Make sure q is prime.
Is the resulting $n$ more easily factorable?
My gut feeling says yes but I can't see why? I thought about Coppersmith but in this case, we don't have any common bit between $p$ and $q$ that are also at the same place. Is there a weakness?
rsa random-number-generator
$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Assume my prime generation is as follows:
Pick a number $q$ between 1000 and 9999. $p=abcd$.
Make sure p is prime
Construct $p$ such by taking the last 2 digits of $q$ and the first 2 digits of q, i.e. $q=cdab$
Make sure q is prime.
Is the resulting $n$ more easily factorable?
My gut feeling says yes but I can't see why? I thought about Coppersmith but in this case, we don't have any common bit between $p$ and $q$ that are also at the same place. Is there a weakness?
rsa random-number-generator
$endgroup$
4
$begingroup$
I noticed that there is no "check if $p$ is prime" or "check if $q$ is prime" listed anywhere in these steps (particularly after step 2). Are we to assume that this check is not done?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
5 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Assume my prime generation is as follows:
Pick a number $q$ between 1000 and 9999. $p=abcd$.
Make sure p is prime
Construct $p$ such by taking the last 2 digits of $q$ and the first 2 digits of q, i.e. $q=cdab$
Make sure q is prime.
Is the resulting $n$ more easily factorable?
My gut feeling says yes but I can't see why? I thought about Coppersmith but in this case, we don't have any common bit between $p$ and $q$ that are also at the same place. Is there a weakness?
rsa random-number-generator
$endgroup$
Assume my prime generation is as follows:
Pick a number $q$ between 1000 and 9999. $p=abcd$.
Make sure p is prime
Construct $p$ such by taking the last 2 digits of $q$ and the first 2 digits of q, i.e. $q=cdab$
Make sure q is prime.
Is the resulting $n$ more easily factorable?
My gut feeling says yes but I can't see why? I thought about Coppersmith but in this case, we don't have any common bit between $p$ and $q$ that are also at the same place. Is there a weakness?
rsa random-number-generator
rsa random-number-generator
edited 3 hours ago
S. L.
asked 6 hours ago
S. L.S. L.
926
926
4
$begingroup$
I noticed that there is no "check if $p$ is prime" or "check if $q$ is prime" listed anywhere in these steps (particularly after step 2). Are we to assume that this check is not done?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
5 hours ago
add a comment |
4
$begingroup$
I noticed that there is no "check if $p$ is prime" or "check if $q$ is prime" listed anywhere in these steps (particularly after step 2). Are we to assume that this check is not done?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
5 hours ago
4
4
$begingroup$
I noticed that there is no "check if $p$ is prime" or "check if $q$ is prime" listed anywhere in these steps (particularly after step 2). Are we to assume that this check is not done?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
5 hours ago
$begingroup$
I noticed that there is no "check if $p$ is prime" or "check if $q$ is prime" listed anywhere in these steps (particularly after step 2). Are we to assume that this check is not done?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
5 hours ago
add a comment |
3 Answers
3
active
oldest
votes
$begingroup$
You don't need anything fancy like Coppersmith, just simple algebra. The idea is to translate the equations we have involving the digits of $p$ and $q$ in base $B$ ($B = 100$ in your example) into equations involving the digits of $n$ in base $B$, which we know. You have $p = x B + y$ and $q = y B + x$, with $0 lt x, y lt B$. Then $n = x y B^2 + (x^2 + y^2) B + x y$.
The rightmost digit of $n$ in base $B$ is $(x y) bmod B$. Since $x,y le B-1$, $(x^2 + y^2) B + x y le 2 (B-1)^2 B + (B-1)^2 lt 2 (B-1)^2 (B+1) = 2 (B-1) (B^2-1) lt 2 B^3$. Hence the $B^3$ digit of $n$ is the $B$ digit of $x y$ plus $z$ where $0 le z lt 2$, i.e. $z in 0, 1$. So by reading the digits of $n$ in base $B$, we get the digits of $x y$ in base $B$, up to two possibilities, giving just two possibilities for $x y$ itself: $x y in W_0, W_1$.
Injecting this knowledge into the equation above gives us $x^2 + y^2 = (n - W_z (B^2 + 1)) / B$. And of course knowing both $x^2 + y^2$ and $x y$ gives $x$ and $y$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's how to recover $x, y$ in a way that's easier than factoring $n$ (I'll use the notation $x, y$ rather than your notation $ab, cd$):
We have $n = xyB^2 + (x^2+y^2)B + xy$
First, compute $n bmod B$, that gives you $xy bmod B$
Then, compute $lfloor (n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 rfloor$; this gives you $xy / B + epsilon$, where $0 le epsilon le 2$
Pasting those two together will give you a total of three possibilities of $xy$.
Then, for each possibility, compute $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B + 2xy$ and $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B - 2xy$; if the guess of $epsilon$ is correct, these will be $(x+y)^2$ and $(x-y)^2$; take squareroots, and extract $x, y$ directly.
(Thanks for Giles for pointing out this last part)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
$endgroup$
– poncho
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
$endgroup$
– poncho
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
1416
Merci petit Gotham combien fait combien fait-il
New contributor
user62962 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
add a comment |
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3 Answers
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3 Answers
3
active
oldest
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oldest
votes
$begingroup$
You don't need anything fancy like Coppersmith, just simple algebra. The idea is to translate the equations we have involving the digits of $p$ and $q$ in base $B$ ($B = 100$ in your example) into equations involving the digits of $n$ in base $B$, which we know. You have $p = x B + y$ and $q = y B + x$, with $0 lt x, y lt B$. Then $n = x y B^2 + (x^2 + y^2) B + x y$.
The rightmost digit of $n$ in base $B$ is $(x y) bmod B$. Since $x,y le B-1$, $(x^2 + y^2) B + x y le 2 (B-1)^2 B + (B-1)^2 lt 2 (B-1)^2 (B+1) = 2 (B-1) (B^2-1) lt 2 B^3$. Hence the $B^3$ digit of $n$ is the $B$ digit of $x y$ plus $z$ where $0 le z lt 2$, i.e. $z in 0, 1$. So by reading the digits of $n$ in base $B$, we get the digits of $x y$ in base $B$, up to two possibilities, giving just two possibilities for $x y$ itself: $x y in W_0, W_1$.
Injecting this knowledge into the equation above gives us $x^2 + y^2 = (n - W_z (B^2 + 1)) / B$. And of course knowing both $x^2 + y^2$ and $x y$ gives $x$ and $y$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You don't need anything fancy like Coppersmith, just simple algebra. The idea is to translate the equations we have involving the digits of $p$ and $q$ in base $B$ ($B = 100$ in your example) into equations involving the digits of $n$ in base $B$, which we know. You have $p = x B + y$ and $q = y B + x$, with $0 lt x, y lt B$. Then $n = x y B^2 + (x^2 + y^2) B + x y$.
The rightmost digit of $n$ in base $B$ is $(x y) bmod B$. Since $x,y le B-1$, $(x^2 + y^2) B + x y le 2 (B-1)^2 B + (B-1)^2 lt 2 (B-1)^2 (B+1) = 2 (B-1) (B^2-1) lt 2 B^3$. Hence the $B^3$ digit of $n$ is the $B$ digit of $x y$ plus $z$ where $0 le z lt 2$, i.e. $z in 0, 1$. So by reading the digits of $n$ in base $B$, we get the digits of $x y$ in base $B$, up to two possibilities, giving just two possibilities for $x y$ itself: $x y in W_0, W_1$.
Injecting this knowledge into the equation above gives us $x^2 + y^2 = (n - W_z (B^2 + 1)) / B$. And of course knowing both $x^2 + y^2$ and $x y$ gives $x$ and $y$.
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
You don't need anything fancy like Coppersmith, just simple algebra. The idea is to translate the equations we have involving the digits of $p$ and $q$ in base $B$ ($B = 100$ in your example) into equations involving the digits of $n$ in base $B$, which we know. You have $p = x B + y$ and $q = y B + x$, with $0 lt x, y lt B$. Then $n = x y B^2 + (x^2 + y^2) B + x y$.
The rightmost digit of $n$ in base $B$ is $(x y) bmod B$. Since $x,y le B-1$, $(x^2 + y^2) B + x y le 2 (B-1)^2 B + (B-1)^2 lt 2 (B-1)^2 (B+1) = 2 (B-1) (B^2-1) lt 2 B^3$. Hence the $B^3$ digit of $n$ is the $B$ digit of $x y$ plus $z$ where $0 le z lt 2$, i.e. $z in 0, 1$. So by reading the digits of $n$ in base $B$, we get the digits of $x y$ in base $B$, up to two possibilities, giving just two possibilities for $x y$ itself: $x y in W_0, W_1$.
Injecting this knowledge into the equation above gives us $x^2 + y^2 = (n - W_z (B^2 + 1)) / B$. And of course knowing both $x^2 + y^2$ and $x y$ gives $x$ and $y$.
$endgroup$
You don't need anything fancy like Coppersmith, just simple algebra. The idea is to translate the equations we have involving the digits of $p$ and $q$ in base $B$ ($B = 100$ in your example) into equations involving the digits of $n$ in base $B$, which we know. You have $p = x B + y$ and $q = y B + x$, with $0 lt x, y lt B$. Then $n = x y B^2 + (x^2 + y^2) B + x y$.
The rightmost digit of $n$ in base $B$ is $(x y) bmod B$. Since $x,y le B-1$, $(x^2 + y^2) B + x y le 2 (B-1)^2 B + (B-1)^2 lt 2 (B-1)^2 (B+1) = 2 (B-1) (B^2-1) lt 2 B^3$. Hence the $B^3$ digit of $n$ is the $B$ digit of $x y$ plus $z$ where $0 le z lt 2$, i.e. $z in 0, 1$. So by reading the digits of $n$ in base $B$, we get the digits of $x y$ in base $B$, up to two possibilities, giving just two possibilities for $x y$ itself: $x y in W_0, W_1$.
Injecting this knowledge into the equation above gives us $x^2 + y^2 = (n - W_z (B^2 + 1)) / B$. And of course knowing both $x^2 + y^2$ and $x y$ gives $x$ and $y$.
edited 2 hours ago
answered 5 hours ago
GillesGilles
8,35232756
8,35232756
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
Thanks for the explanation! I get most of it but wouldn't $n= xyB^2 + Bx^2 + By^2 + xy$? Do the other equations hold?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
4 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@S.L. Woops, different equation, but same principle.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's how to recover $x, y$ in a way that's easier than factoring $n$ (I'll use the notation $x, y$ rather than your notation $ab, cd$):
We have $n = xyB^2 + (x^2+y^2)B + xy$
First, compute $n bmod B$, that gives you $xy bmod B$
Then, compute $lfloor (n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 rfloor$; this gives you $xy / B + epsilon$, where $0 le epsilon le 2$
Pasting those two together will give you a total of three possibilities of $xy$.
Then, for each possibility, compute $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B + 2xy$ and $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B - 2xy$; if the guess of $epsilon$ is correct, these will be $(x+y)^2$ and $(x-y)^2$; take squareroots, and extract $x, y$ directly.
(Thanks for Giles for pointing out this last part)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
$endgroup$
– poncho
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
$endgroup$
– poncho
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's how to recover $x, y$ in a way that's easier than factoring $n$ (I'll use the notation $x, y$ rather than your notation $ab, cd$):
We have $n = xyB^2 + (x^2+y^2)B + xy$
First, compute $n bmod B$, that gives you $xy bmod B$
Then, compute $lfloor (n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 rfloor$; this gives you $xy / B + epsilon$, where $0 le epsilon le 2$
Pasting those two together will give you a total of three possibilities of $xy$.
Then, for each possibility, compute $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B + 2xy$ and $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B - 2xy$; if the guess of $epsilon$ is correct, these will be $(x+y)^2$ and $(x-y)^2$; take squareroots, and extract $x, y$ directly.
(Thanks for Giles for pointing out this last part)
$endgroup$
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
$endgroup$
– poncho
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
$endgroup$
– poncho
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Here's how to recover $x, y$ in a way that's easier than factoring $n$ (I'll use the notation $x, y$ rather than your notation $ab, cd$):
We have $n = xyB^2 + (x^2+y^2)B + xy$
First, compute $n bmod B$, that gives you $xy bmod B$
Then, compute $lfloor (n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 rfloor$; this gives you $xy / B + epsilon$, where $0 le epsilon le 2$
Pasting those two together will give you a total of three possibilities of $xy$.
Then, for each possibility, compute $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B + 2xy$ and $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B - 2xy$; if the guess of $epsilon$ is correct, these will be $(x+y)^2$ and $(x-y)^2$; take squareroots, and extract $x, y$ directly.
(Thanks for Giles for pointing out this last part)
$endgroup$
Here's how to recover $x, y$ in a way that's easier than factoring $n$ (I'll use the notation $x, y$ rather than your notation $ab, cd$):
We have $n = xyB^2 + (x^2+y^2)B + xy$
First, compute $n bmod B$, that gives you $xy bmod B$
Then, compute $lfloor (n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 rfloor$; this gives you $xy / B + epsilon$, where $0 le epsilon le 2$
Pasting those two together will give you a total of three possibilities of $xy$.
Then, for each possibility, compute $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B + 2xy$ and $(n - xyB^2 - xy) / B - 2xy$; if the guess of $epsilon$ is correct, these will be $(x+y)^2$ and $(x-y)^2$; take squareroots, and extract $x, y$ directly.
(Thanks for Giles for pointing out this last part)
edited 2 hours ago
answered 3 hours ago
ponchoponcho
93.8k2146244
93.8k2146244
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
$endgroup$
– poncho
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
$endgroup$
– poncho
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
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@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
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– poncho
2 hours ago
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I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
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– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
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– poncho
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
Yeah, right, the $B^3$ digit of $n$ gives the other digit of $x y$. And there's no need to factor anything: once you know $x y$, you know $x^2 + y^2$.
$endgroup$
– Gilles
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
$endgroup$
– poncho
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
@Gilles: yup, you're right; I'll update the answer
$endgroup$
– poncho
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
I don't get this part: Then, compute $⌊(n−B^2(xymod B))/B^3⌋$ this gives you $xy/B+ϵ$, where $0≤ϵ≤2$. I have $xymod B$ but not $xy$?
$endgroup$
– S. L.
2 hours ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
$endgroup$
– poncho
1 hour ago
$begingroup$
$(n - B^2(xy bmod B)) / B^3 = lfloor(xy/B) rfloor + x^2 / B^2 + y^2 / B^2 + xy / B^3$; we know that $x^2 / B^2, y^2 / B^2, xy / B^3$ are all less than 1 (and $ge 0$), and so the sum must be in the interval $[0, 3)$, that is, two or less once you round down...
$endgroup$
– poncho
1 hour ago
add a comment |
$begingroup$
1416
Merci petit Gotham combien fait combien fait-il
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$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
1416
Merci petit Gotham combien fait combien fait-il
New contributor
user62962 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$endgroup$
add a comment |
$begingroup$
1416
Merci petit Gotham combien fait combien fait-il
New contributor
user62962 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
$endgroup$
1416
Merci petit Gotham combien fait combien fait-il
New contributor
user62962 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
Check out our Code of Conduct.
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answered 46 mins ago
user62962user62962
1
1
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user62962 is a new contributor to this site. Take care in asking for clarification, commenting, and answering.
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$begingroup$
I noticed that there is no "check if $p$ is prime" or "check if $q$ is prime" listed anywhere in these steps (particularly after step 2). Are we to assume that this check is not done?
$endgroup$
– Ella Rose♦
5 hours ago