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In the time of the mishna, were there Jewish cities without courts?
Were the Cities of Refuge ever built?Why were there no Jewish philosophy tracts until the Rasag?Why is the torah so misleading without the oral lawWere there any Sadducees on the Sanhedrin?Flint, Michigan: Who would be HALACHICALLY Liable?German and Ethiopian Jews in the time of the Mishna?Were there non-Jewish prophets? If yes, who were they and what were their purpose?Does anyone say the “extra” pesukim in Yehoshua about the cities from Reuven belong there?Why are the cities Reuven gave to the Leviyim not listed in Yehoshua?How early in the process can the accused sotah refuse to drink?
In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.
At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?
history beit-din-court tractate-sotah cities
add a comment |
In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.
At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?
history beit-din-court tractate-sotah cities
add a comment |
In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.
At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?
history beit-din-court tractate-sotah cities
In a discussion of the heifer ritual when a murder victim is found between two cities, Sotah 9:2 lists some cases when a city does not bring a heifer, including a city where a majority of the inhabitants are not Jewish and a city where there is no court. The city without a court must be a Jewish-majority one, else there would be no need to mention it here because it would already be covered by the previous case. But that, in turn, got me wondering how a Jewish city could possibly not have a court. It says עיר (city), so I assume the mishna is not talking about a tiny village that doesn't have three learned men.
At the time of the mishna, were there enough Jewish cities without a court that the mishna had to consider the case? Or is this likely to be a theoretical case, just in case a city should be lacking a court for whatever reason?
history beit-din-court tractate-sotah cities
history beit-din-court tractate-sotah cities
asked 2 hours ago
Monica Cellio♦Monica Cellio
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A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6
And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.
Bartenura
מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,
עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin
ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges
ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash
ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors
ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists
ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists
ושני עדים. two witnesses
ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses
ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses
ושני גבאים, two donation officiers
ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them
ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
= 120
add a comment |
The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.
(See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)
Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.
The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.
The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.
(The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)
This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.
In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)
I hope this helps.
1
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
add a comment |
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
2 Answers
2
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
active
oldest
votes
A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6
And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.
Bartenura
מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,
עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin
ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges
ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash
ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors
ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists
ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists
ושני עדים. two witnesses
ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses
ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses
ושני גבאים, two donation officiers
ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them
ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
= 120
add a comment |
A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6
And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.
Bartenura
מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,
עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin
ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges
ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash
ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors
ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists
ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists
ושני עדים. two witnesses
ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses
ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses
ושני גבאים, two donation officiers
ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them
ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
= 120
add a comment |
A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6
And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.
Bartenura
מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,
עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin
ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges
ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash
ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors
ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists
ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists
ושני עדים. two witnesses
ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses
ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses
ושני גבאים, two donation officiers
ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them
ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
= 120
A little town hasn't Bet Din. See Sanhedrin Mishna 1.6
And how many [inhabitants] must a city have before it may have a Sanhedrin? One hundred and twenty. Rabbi Nechemiah says, two hundred and thirty, [each judge] corresponding to a chief of a group of ten.
Bartenura
מאה ועשרים - מפרש בגמרא,
עשרים ושלשה, סנהדרי קטנה. twenty three for the little Sanhedrin
ושלש שורות של עשרים ושלש עשרים ושלש יושבים לפניהם, שאם הוצרכו להוסיף על הדיינים מוסיפים מהם. Three ranges of 23 they are seeting in
front of them, because sometime they need to add Judges
ועשרה בטלנים, עשרה בני אדם בטלים מכל מלאכה שיושבים תמיד בבית המדרש. ten 'chomeurs" they don't work and are all time in Bet Midrash
ושני סופרים לכתוב דברי המזכין ודברי המחייבין. two scribes who write the words of the accusatory and defensors
ושני חזנים, שמשי בית דין להלקות החייב ולהזמין בעלי הדין. Two court employees who flog the condemned and call upon the protagonists
ושני בעלי דינין . two protagonists
ושני עדים. two witnesses
ושני זוממין . two "zomemim" witnesses
ושני זוממי זוממין. two "zomeme zomemim" witnesses
ושני גבאים, two donation officiers
ושלישי לחלק הצדקה, שצדקה נגבית בשנים ומתחלקת בשלשה.a third donation officier to distribute tsedaka with them
ורופא אומן להקיז דם. ולבלר לט. ומלמד תינוקות. הרי מאה ועשרים: a doctor who makes bleeding therapy, a scribe and a master for children,
= 120
edited 1 hour ago
answered 1 hour ago
koutykouty
16.5k32048
16.5k32048
add a comment |
add a comment |
The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.
(See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)
Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.
The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.
The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.
(The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)
This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.
In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)
I hope this helps.
1
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
add a comment |
The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.
(See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)
Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.
The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.
The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.
(The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)
This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.
In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)
I hope this helps.
1
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
add a comment |
The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.
(See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)
Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.
The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.
The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.
(The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)
This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.
In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)
I hope this helps.
The Gemara on the Mishnah you quoted says that since the verse asks for "ziknei ha'eer" (elders of the city), it means members of a Court of 23 Judges.
(See also Rambam, Hilchos Rotzeach 9:4, who says a Court of 23 Judges.)
Therefore it won't suffice to have a Court of 3 Rabbis.
The Sefer HaChinuch (Mitzvah 531) explains that the calf ceremony is for finding a murdered corpse and thus must be precided over by a Court who is empowered to judge murder cases. The minimum court for that is 23.
The requirement of 23 over 3, depends on factors having to do with the population and makeup of the city.
(The Mishnah/Gemara says we measure to the nearest city that has a court of 23; not that we just don't do the ceremony if the nearest city doesn't have a court.)
This is all in contrast to the question of whether or not the victim is found near the border or near a city with a population of idolaters.
In that case the ceremony is not carried out at all, because the wandering unknown victim should not have been wandering in a dangerous area like that alone. Therefore the victim shares some of the guilt and the people of the cities do not need to perform the eglah ceremony. (See Rambam Peirush HaMishnayos on this Mishnah.)
I hope this helps.
edited 23 mins ago
answered 30 mins ago
David KennerDavid Kenner
8,278927
8,278927
1
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
add a comment |
1
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
1
1
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
The mishna also says that if the nearest city doesn't have a court you go farther, not skip the ceremony. (And yes, I'm aware of the border and idolaters cases, thanks.)
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Oh, it has to be a court that could hear a capital case! That makes sense, and is a harder bar to meet.
– Monica Cellio♦
25 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
Right on both comments.
– David Kenner
22 mins ago
add a comment |